Toxic Masculinity, Gender Roles, and Navigating the Tween Years

An interview with Kevin Knight, father to a 13 year old boy and 11 year old girl. Kevin is an athlete and the grandson of a pro football player. He coaches his son's football and lacrosse team and explains how the old way of pushing and yelling at kids is outdated and ineffective. We also discuss the challenge of raising a daughter with anxiety and empowering her to believe she can accomplish great things, while also preparing her for a world with gender disparities. 

Also, Stefanie begins the show with her thoughts on Maycember, and how we are all just trying to make it until summer.

A Podcast for People Raising Tricky Kids

Transcript

  📍 Hi village. welcome back. This is Stephanie. Thanks for tuning in. Do we say tuning in, if it's a podcast, when that was actually referring to tuning a radio, there's probably another word for it, but thank you for being here. And I'm wondering if anyone else is hanging by a thread because it's the end of the school year. 

I'm sorry, west and east coasters. We actually are out of school already. At least our school is in the middle of the country. People seem to dismiss school in may. And I always feel bad for my east coast friends that are like, we still have school until the middle of June. So I'm very sorry. But regardless of when your kids get out of school, 

May Sember is a term I've heard recently and it is real and it is an avalanche of activity. And having three kids makes it three times that things , to juggle. We have had. Field trips. Expos. And each of our kids has done an expo, which is so cool where we go and get to see everything that they have worked on this semester. 

Whether it's designing a video game or building a city learning circuitry. Learning all about trees, all of, you know, the ecosystems, all. It's so cool. Okay. It's just three different days that we need to be there to do that. My son. Um, one of them even had a mock trial, which was so cute because they did all of this work, learning about trees and championed trees. What makes a tree. 

Debtor to all these things. And then they did a mock trial where a neighbor was accusing a little lady next door of chopping her tree down. And each of the kids had to present. Evidence and they had scientists and one of the kids was even dressed as a tree and testified as a tree. And they sprinkled all of the science that they learned this year in, through the presentation. 

But, and it was at the courthouse. So that was really cool. And one of the parents is a judge, so she was, um, I didn't know, she was a judge and I kept going. She looks like she really belongs up there and she's got the robe and everything is, she had. She was very judicial. Anyways, we had that. That was it. After dude. It was so fun. I'm just saying we're adding all the things field day. 

Swim party day. Leah before last. I got an email at nine 30. I checked my email at 1130 when I was climbing in bed. And it was like spirit week is this week, tomorrow is pajama day. 

Luckily, this was for middle school and I have a middle school boy who did not give one care in the world that it was spirit day. He did not participate at all. But what have you wanted to wear pajamas the next day or wear a safari shirt or whatever was the rest of the week? Um, and then the other thing is the dates for things change constantly. And the times the day before let's see school for my kids got out of Wednesday. 

Tuesday afternoon. Yeah. Tuesday afternoon. I got an email from the head of the middle school that said, this is all the things we're doing tomorrow. Dah, dah, dah, dah. And we'll be ready to dismiss by one 30 at the latest. Okay. He normally gets out at 2 55. Um, I had an appointment like. This was the day before school got out. Anyway, my friend, God bless her. She picked him up. It was fine. 

Later another email went out that said, sorry, if your kid doesn't. You know, want to leave or can't leave. They can stay. So I think that's freaked out parents. Um, But the juggling, all of the juggling and then Casey and I are doing something that I feel like might be my best and worst idea I've ever had in my life. 

Which is the kids got out of school on Wednesday and he and I are going to Mexico on Sunday. 

We're just like we made it to the finish line. We got the kids. To summer. And he and I are hitting the road for some mental health time. We also though, as a result, have to prepare for the childcare, right. So going on vacation when you have children. Requires a lot of emotional labor and mental labor before you can leave. 

In. Our case. Um, My mom is a little older, right. Cause I'm older and I try really hard to not make it like she's watching these three wild monkeys, like 24 7. So we have them enrolled in a day camp. And for the weekend. And like the longer days that we're going to be gone, we have our friend who has nannied for us for million years. She's been nanny. And since my oldest was three. 

She's a friend and she is going to come stay with them. And she's going to bring her little girl who is the cutest thing in the whole world. And they're going to stay. So, okay. Anyway, so I have to like make a schedule. For my friend of what she's going to do, I have to have all of the medication for the kids, like easily organized. So nothing gets messed up. 

And then she's going to pass the torch to my mom. And then my mom is going to take the kids back and forth to camp every day. And I went ahead and paid extra for lunch, so she doesn't have to make lunches. And two of my kids are doing mountain biking camp. And I already have the bikes at school. God bless my husband. He took them to go get a tune-up and he delivered them to school today with the medicine and the form that one of my kids needs so that he can take his medicine every day around lunchtime. 

So we got that done. And then I. You know, I've like got all the sunscreen and the swimming suits and the towels, and I have all of it labeled and you know what, I'm not going to be here to make sure any of it goes where it's supposed to go. That anybody's going to show up where they need to be. And, um, I'm just going to have to let go of worrying about that because they're going to have a great time, no matter what my mom will give them ice cream for breakfast. 

And they will love it and it will be fine. But I took may Sember and then added going out of town. Uh, on top of it. However it will all be worth it. When I have five days with just my husband and the ocean, and hopefully waiters that will bring me delicious drinks. So that's where I'm headed. We have not taken this kind of vacation in six years, um, due to COVID. So we are really, really, really excited. And I'm a little concerned about my kids because they are not happy with us for leaving. 

Does that happen to anybody else? You're not allowed to leave. I want to come do. Oh Lord. Anyway, these children. Okay. So what are we doing today? Today? We have a longtime friend of mine. Over 20 years. Named Kevin Knight and he is a dad to too, as you're going to hear him say he has a son. Who's 13 and a daughter who is 11. 

And Kevin is, uh, an athlete and he was very active in sports growing up. And he as was his family culture. And Kevin sat down with us today to talk with me about. What it's like in 2023. With children heavily involved in sports and trying to battle things like toxic masculinity. Uh, allowing your kids to have feelings. 

Et cetera. So Kevin's a really fun guy. I think you're going to  📍 like him. So hang in there because here comes my interview with Kevin.  



 We have a very special guest this week. His name is Kevin Knight. Hi, Kevin.

Hi, Stephanie. Thanks for having me.

Oh, absolutely. Thanks for being here. So tell me, what do you want us to know? Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Well, I don't know. I, I'd seen your podcast. Um, you know, the whole role that dads play and, and kind of what we're seeing with, I think specifically male mental health, it was just kind of compelling to come on and talk about it. I think it's important. I've seen it important in raising my own kids. Um, you know, who are complete opposites and, and how I've had to raise them.

Uh, I have a 13 year old boy, Jack and 11 year old daughter, Piper, and couldn't be more polar opposite. And, you know, gender, uh, attributes aside, you know, they're, they're different emotionally, mentally. And, you know, having to adapt to that as a dad has been interesting. So I thought it'd be an interesting conversation.

Well, I mean, you're so right. I mean, listen, I thought I was going to raise daughters. That is not what I have. Um, so I've had to kind of learn about this boy thing this whole time, but you know, what's funny is like, once you think. You know, you start out in the beginning and you get this one kid and you're trying to figure out how to be a new parent.

And then you kind of feel like maybe you've got it down a little bit and then the next kid is nothing like,

Yeah,

none of the things work. It's so maddening. Um, so I don't know. I was telling somebody the other day, I was like, I don't think my kids are ever, are even going to think that they had the same like experience being raised,

and I don't think my sister and I did.

No. Right. I know.

think that's when you become a parent, you look back and you go, okay, that makes sense. You know, you can't parent or lead, you know, with in any group or organization. You can't lead everybody the same. Everybody requires, you know, a different touch might, you know, jack jacks, 13.

He's your stereotypical boy. He's. He's clueless, aloof, um, he's dirty. I love him to death. He's a sweet kid,

I

uh, but he's just all over the place and my, my daughter's the opposite. I mean, she sets her alarm for 5. 50 every morning, gets up, makes her bed,

Why is she up so early? Is that because school starts

it's an anxiety thing for her.

She's very high anxiety and so that helps her. alleviate that. She's able to get up and kind of mentally prepare herself for the day, but she's super high anxiety, attention to detail. You know, she's the one that always wants to worry about things. Um, you know, she'll, she'll run a company one day. She'll be amazing.

How old is she now? Eleven. Okay. I'm just writing this down because I will forget in five seconds. So, um, should we tell our listeners how we know each other?

That's up to you. I wasn't going to bring it up, but if you want to tell the story, you can go

Um, what year did you graduate from high school?

three.

Oh, geez. Okay. Okay, guys. Kevin was one of my students. Oh, my God. When I taught from 2000 to 2002. So.

were a baby too at the time.

I was a baby. I was a baby. And it's interesting because, you know, if you're gonna teach high school and you're new out of college, there's no way to skip the part where you're practically the same age as your students.

So, um,

was more of a nightmare for you than...

yeah, you know, I think one of the hardest parts was that my entire Childhood and young adulthood, I had spent time working with kids younger than me at church. So when I was in high school, I was working with middle schoolers. And when I was in college, I was working with high schoolers. And, um, if you're a volunteer at church, your relationship with, you know, if you're 22 and you're, Trying to mentor some high school girls or whatever in a Bible study, your relationship with them is not at all the same as what a teacher is.

And, um, honestly, I think that's one of the reasons that I, um, floundered and hated it because I wanted to give more, mentor more in a way that, um, you really can't, if you're, you know, you need 185 children to sit and listen to your lecture all day.

And it didn't help that we abused you. As well. That probably didn't help things.

You know what? It was fun though. I mean, it was the hardest job I've ever had. It kicks my butt. I cried a lot. Um, but there's, you're one of a handful of kids. I mean, you're a grown man.

Now look at us!

How old are you now?

I just turned 38.

Okay. Also, I am a bit older than you. I'm 45.

Yeah.



Well, yeah, God, it's the hardest job I've ever had.

No, I wouldn't want it. I've coached football, youth football, for the past six years. And that's, you know, an hour and a half, two hours at most, dealing with them a day. There's no way I could do a full eight.

well, and I think, oh yeah, well, and also I put so much pressure on myself, so much pressure on. really, I think in the state of Oklahoma, high school teachers supposed to have like 180 students that was like the contract. And, you know, I always had that many on the day that they counted how many students you had.

And then after that, like just waves of students would keep coming. So I had well over 200 students, but I had kids, you know, I had a kid one time that he lived. Um, it was just, there was so much involved beyond just teaching acting speech and TV that, um, it was a lot. And, um, but anyway, I just, I forget sometimes that's how we met.

Yeah. Well, I do too. And now we're, now we're on a podcast

Yeah, now we're on a podcast and we're friends and not that we have the chance to socialize that often. At one point, our oldest were all on, I think, a soccer team together or something.

Yeah.

Okay. So you're very, so we are not sports people at our house. Like our kids having an interest in sports is hard for us to like figure out what we're supposed to be doing.

I'm like, if you want to be the lead in the school play, I totally know how to help you get there. Um, so, but you're a sports person. I mean, you're, you're have family sports culture that's been handed down to you. What's that been like translating that to Jack who's 13.

That's a good question. Um you know, like I said, I've coached for the past 6 years. I grew up, you know, my my granddad played pro football. Uh played in the first two Super Bowls. What's really interesting is you get older, and I've realized from coaching is the guys that have done great things in sports, they don't talk about it.

And so, when I started coaching, I think I got every football resume from every dad on the team. You know, you get an email like, I played here, I played here, I played here. And you're kind of like, okay, that's, that's a little abnormal. Um, but what you realize, you know, my, my granddad played, um, Um, for Lombardi for a portion of his career, which if you're not familiar with Lombardi, that's who the Super Bowl trophies named after he was, uh, the coach at Green Bay for a long time.

Um, but the stories those guys tell about him are not sports related. I mean, they are, but it's more of the emotional impact he had on them. And what I, what I love about Lombardi is he gets credit for being this. mean guy that beat up on his players and won games. He was really good at that. But, you know, in the 1950s and 60s, the NFL was not what it was today.

They weren't making money. They worked, you know, jobs on the offseason. What was interesting about Lombardi was, you know, there were unwritten rules in the NFL at the time. You didn't have so many black players on your team. Um, you didn't draft black players in the early rounds of the draft. And he broke all those rules.

He started, drafted. More black players in his time than any other coach in the league. And, I mean, he was so aggressive about it. He wouldn't play, uh, games in stadiums that segregated people. He wouldn't stay in hotels that segregated his players. He told me stories, or my granddad told me stories about, you know, some hotels they'd stayed in, they would make the black players come in through the back door, like where the kitchen was.

And so Lombardi would have everybody go through the back door. He, um... Um, he had gay players, gay coaches that he was protective over and that's, that's pretty radical and

yeah. I mean, that's something that has really only had significant progress in the last decade. I

So to be doing that, um, but you realize the coaches, the sports figures that are great, who, you know, the, the people, you'll never forget their name. They had more of an impact than just. Sports and I figured that out really quickly, not just coaching, but parenting my own kids, you know, it's sports or not for kids.

It's not, Hey, let's go be great. Let's go win a bunch of ball games. Although that's tends to be what we focus on, but there's a lot of development you can do on learning to be part of a team, learning to interact with people that are, are different from you learning to, you know, treat people equally, even though you have different roles.

, so taking that and what I learned,  not being the sports dad, but really applying that to how I've raised my kids and how I've coached, , other kids, you know, some of these kids I've coached for six years, you know, some of my treat like my own kids. So

well, I think that's huge. Honestly, the more adults in a kid's life that can love on them and that can help with their self esteem and development is just gigantic. And Thank you. Thank you. You guys happen to live in a school district in a state where, you know, if you're going to play football, you got to start at what age?

Like pre k?

first grade, I mean, they started in first grade. Um, I think Jack started in second and then I, I coached from second up until This past season, so it's a commitment. I will say, you know, I'm, you know, not close, but I've, I've talked with Lauren Montgomery, you know, who's the head coach at Bixby and he's, he's really just a fantastic individual when he talks about his kids.

You know, he just, he doesn't want just athletes. He wants good students. He wants Kids that have good morals are coachable. He really does push that in his program. And he's treated my son very well. So, you know, I can say he's kind of bucked the trend on what you would expect a high school football coach to be.

I think he's a, first and foremost, a really good developer of young men. I think he's done a fantastic job out there.

I think that's really important. I think, you know, some kids, I don't have kids that I feel like are meant to be team sports people.

that's fine. I mean, you know me. I played football. I played baseball. But I was also in choir. Musical theater and I had you for for drama and so I kind of mixed it up. I was always the football Guy, but never really foot fit in with that group And I always felt like I fit in more with the the theater group and stuff like that.

So

Well, it's interesting, you know, and I hope more and more that kids are able to have their foot in both worlds, in the arts and in sports, because, I mean, you can really love and enjoy both. I, I have to tell people all the time, you know, I'm like, You know, you really, like, think Brad Pitt's cool, right? But, you know, did, was he cool when he was, like, in the theater group in, when he was, you know, in 10th grade?

But now he's, you know,

yeah, he's coolest guy on the planet

yeah, where do these actors become this? And you know, I tell, uh, my husband all the time, I'm like, let's go get facials. And he's like, mmm. And I'm like, you think George Clooney doesn't get facials? He gets facials, all these beautiful, yeah, all these beautiful men, they're all getting these facials, they're all taking care of their skin, that's why they look so great.

Um, my kids, I just think, it's interesting, and you know, I guess I shouldn't give up on team sports for them necessarily. The thing that I have learned is kids with ADHD and significant anxiety, Don't do collaboration in a high, what they view as a high stakes setting very well. Uh, my oldest has gotten really into tennis and Tennis, you kind of live and die alone.

I mean, there's nobody to blame. He's really enjoying it. It's getting him out of the house, , doing something

the main thing.

Um, but it's interesting because I think, um, sometimes, you know, I don't know how many movies are made about like a great tennis player versus like, how many football movies are there?

Right. We, we romanticize football. And, you know, to go back to your point, I don't think kids have to play sports for the face value of just playing a sport. I think to get them outside and get them activity, it's great. Um, but, you know, I, I would tell kids tackle football is the last sport you want to play if you want to go out and like.

just have a good

go play soccer. Like what we did. I mean, when Jack and Harry were on the same team, that was great. They were just out getting exercise. But you get these parents that sign their kids up for tackle football when they're 13 years old and it's, you know, well, we want to hold them off cause it's too dangerous and they throw them in there and then, you know, you're pushing them, trying to live vicariously, you know, through them, living out things you didn't get to live.

And that's not fair. Um, lacrosse is, uh. A sport that's getting really popular. Jack, Jack plays and loves lacrosse. And I think that'll be the next big wave of athletics. It's not as violent. The dads haven't ruined it yet. Um, it's just a great sport.

Yeah, a lot of people have recommended lacrosse to me, and I've, it's so interesting, it's so interesting raising these little people because I mean, really their entire childhood, they're trying to figure it out. We're trying to figure out like, what is your thing? What do you want to do? Where do you want to be?

And we personally, I'm not here to add more stuff to our schedule. So I have never been the parent that's just like, let's just sign you up for all these things. You're going to take lessons. You're going to be on all these sports. And, you know, there's a church down the road from us that. We've done best, I'm not basketball soccer through, and we drove past their sign a couple of months ago.

And I was like, Hey guys, it looks like it's time to sign up for soccer. If you want to. And everyone was like, nah. And I was like, all right,

Yeah.

if you're, if you don't really want to be there, then why are we doing this? And let's find your thing. I mean, my youngest is super into circuit building and like wiring things.

Right.

my wife's brother. My nephew is like that. He loves building things, loves taking things apart, um, super smart and then it's so funny because he and Jack get together and they're polar opposites. I mean, they love each other. They love hanging out, but you couldn't have two kids that are more, more different.

And Piper does cheer, you know, which I think she likes, but she's my art kid. She likes to sit down and do crafts and draw and paint and all that stuff. So that's a completely different ball game.

Yeah. When my kids want to do anything artistic, I'm like, yes, I know how to do this. I don't know. I mean, I'll go play horse and, or whatever in the driveway with them. And I lose every time. Um, so, I mean, it's not like we're, we're just not, it's kind of funny actually, because Casey, he says he's always liked sports, I would argue that he are in our entire marriage until the thunder got kind of a.

Roland is a big thing. We never, like, I never had to compete for his time versus what was on television. Like, never.

I don't watch football,

Well, he is, well, actually, it's funny because he became a big Thunderplant fan and then all of, like, the Thunder people, you know, Westbrook and Kevin Durant and Harden. They all went to different teams for a minute there.

He was trying to watch all of those teams like where they ended up. That was a lot. Now he's just a Russell Westbrook fan. So wherever Westbrook is, he wants to watch it. But we kind of had a lot of arguments because in my mind I'm like, there's a new episode of Game of Thrones on, obviously we're going to watch that tonight.

And he's like, Oh, there's a Thunder game. And I'm like, who are you? I don't. Why are you doing this to me? I have never been the wife that had to, like, negotiate. I'm

Yeah,

and I'm, I'm like, didn't they just play Phoenix last week? And he's like, yeah, but that was in Phoenix. Now they're

now, it's in Oklahoma

uh huh. And I'm like, okay, it sounds like a rerun to me personally.

That's what I tell them. Is that a rerun? I feel like they just did that. And I, I know.

by the way.

I know it's different, but I just, anyway, clearly, I mean, listen, if OSU's on, I don't know it's on, but if I stumble across it, I am yelling and hollering and excited. I just don't like intentionally follow it, I guess.

And that's fine and that's I think that's perfectly reasonable and part of my

I to play sports. There's not, not some written rule where your kid needs to play tackle football or go play competitive baseball. And that's another thing. And I say that as having, you know, a kid who's absolutely obsessed with sports, but I've given him the option to quit every year. I'm like, if you don't enjoy this anymore, if you feel like you're not safe, tell me and we don't have to do this anymore.

And I think that's important because I, I want him to have fun and be a kid versus. You know, me going out and force him to do something that he doesn't necessarily want to do.

I love that because I, I mean, just checking in with him every year, I think is huge and not just like assuming and we're going to keep going and. Um, we're, we kind of struggle with, um, our kids like kind of thinking they want to do something and then, you know, we get them signed up and we're several either lessons or practices into something and you can tell they hate it.

And I have yet to decide how, like, do we, you know, listen, when we play in the church soccer league, there's only like six games. So like we can make it, we can make it to the end,

Yeah. And it's different when you're in a team activity. And I'm not going to say sport. It's a team activity. You know, you want to teach them, not that you're letting people down, but hey, you're, you're a part of a team. And when you commit to something like that, that's important. But, you know, Jack came to us a couple of years ago and I mean, he does.

He's football lacrosse. He's on a travel lacrosse team. I mean, we're all over the place and he decided that, uh, God, I don't remember what it was. He decided to want to, he wanted to play the trombone or something like that. He wanted to join band and I didn't, you know, I have tons of friends that were in band.

I was in choir. That's not like something I was going to blow up about, but I was like, dude, let's think about this. You wake up, you go to school, you have two hours of football practice. You come and do homework. Where are you going to fit in? Yeah. Trombone practice,

Yeah. Cause you're gonna need to practice 20, 30 minutes a day.

yeah, at least, and I was like, sleep on it, you know, let's, I'm not saying no, I'm just saying I want you to, secretly, I'm saying no, like, in my head, I'm like, there's no way I want

he kind of

football practice and listen to the trombone

Yeah, it needs to go through the logical, um, thought process of what, and it's, I mean, and that's something that adults have to do all the time. When somebody asks me to do something and I, you know, even if I really want to do it sitting there and going, I have no, I don't know where I would.

Put that I've really enjoyed that. There's this Acting studio that's opened up in town about a year ago because I really missed acting But let's say I got cast in a play I can't I cannot do rehearsal five nights a week for you know However many weeks and then perform like my entire family would implode.

I just don't even know

no, Casey would murder you.

I would get murdered, um, my poor mother who is so helpful, it'd be way too much to ask for, of her, and you know, I've had people, you know, approach me or suggest it, and I'm like, I can't, I really enjoy my acting class I'm doing once a week, and I, you know, I submitted my headshot the other day for probably a one line role in the sequel to Twister, so I mean, like, I have Um, I have no, no one called me or anything, but I'm sending out my sitting out.

I mean, like I'm open to you if you need a woman to like run through a grocery store and twister and say, take cover. Like I can take a day off of work and go do that. Producers of twister. If you're listening, I, um, have a pretty flexible schedule. Um, but otherwise I don't have time and it's like, where.

of us do.

Where would Jack put the, the trombone? That's so funny. And you also kind of want to be like, I want to pull up this thread and try to figure out where we came up with trombone.

Well, he, he saw it, I, I'm sure he got, you know, he was in a class talking to a teacher and they, they talked it up without knowing, you know, how, how busy he was outside of school. And it, and to his credit, he slept on it, thought about it. He was like, yeah, that, that probably doesn't make a lot of sense. But I was perfectly, you know, it's not like I killed it to begin with because he wanted to play the trombone.

I was like, dude, you just don't, you don't have the hours in the day to do it.

Well, when you add something, oftentimes you kind of have to decide what you're going to give less priority. I mean, when you have a schedule that that's full. So let me ask you this, you know, I think we've learned a lot, even since. You know, you graduated high school and you didn't play football after high school, did you?

Okay. So, you know, even since that time period of people going, you know, we're having all of these brain injuries and professional NFL players and also just people like you who I'm sure loved playing football in college, but you have, your body has, is still living with some of the effects of playing. How did you weigh that with your decision

That's a good question because I did weigh it big time and I didn't necessarily want him starting that young. Um, you know, he started when he was in second grade. When you look at the science that's out there, and I actually had these discussions quite a bit, there's a pediatric neurologist on, uh, one of the parents on Jack's team.

So we had these discussions and I'm pretty sure my granddad had CTE, you know, playing back when helmets were pretty much non existent.

Right. Like just like a leather cap or whatever.

Yeah. And you look at. You know how they were taught the things they do and it's not so much the concussions that causes the constant, you know, hitting your head. I think they call it sub concussive hits.

Um, so, you know, I, I taught the offensive line on Jack's team and, you know, I would, I would take classes and go through seminars to teach how to properly tackle to teach how to properly block where you're taking the head out of it.

Oh, okay. That's

Teaching, Bixby teaches a, uh, method called the Seahawk Tackle, where, you know, you're not spearing a guy, you're not trying to murder him with your head, you're, you take your head to the side and you, you wrap him and you bring him down, kind of more like a, like a rugby tackle.

So Bixby does a pretty good job of, of, I think, teaching proper form, but, you know, you can't take any, any injury out of play when it comes to a sport like tackle football, but I, I had to go back and, I didn't really think, you know, is there a chance he can get injured, something long term, you know, I'm on about my third knee surgery.

Um, yes, but I didn't want my fear of something happening, you know, to keep him from doing something that he enjoyed. And so, what I did figure out was we started him in second grade, that's the best time to start him, because they can't hurt each other. I mean, they just bounce off of each other, like, it's like they're wearing styrofoam.

Yeah, their bones are still jello.

Yeah, so they can't. I mean, second through about fifth grade, they're not going to, unless they roll an ankle or something, they're not going to hurt each other. There's not going to be a large amount of concussions. They don't have the strength. They don't have the body weight. Um, but when they get 12, 13, they start, you know, getting the juice.

Um, that's when they can get hurt. So when you want to introduce your kid to tackle football at 12, 13 years old, when they've never played it before, I would encourage you, go do it when they're young and they can't hurt themselves, then find out if they don't like it, then quit, then there's no real risk of injury, so.

Well, and in this part of the country, I mean... Football is taken so seriously and, you know, I remember being at various soccer practices that, you know, we're in a park big enough where, where part of the green space was having a football practice and it was young kids. And I was like, Oh my God, I would never want to play football.

I mean, they were the drills. They were running. They were, I mean, they were just kicking these kids butts and yelling at them the whole time, which that's a stereotype that I have in my head that it sounds like that is not anything like what you are doing.

No, they're, it's not, but I have to, and I do yell at them. Sometimes they just have to be yelled at, especially when they're 12, 13 years

Yeah. Your wife is going to write in and be like, he does yell.

No, yeah, I absolutely do yell at them, but it's not in a, it's not an abusive way. Um, sometimes I think it can be interpreted that way. You, we do, we, that stereotype is correct in a lot of ways, especially when you have dads coaching where they're going to coach the way they were coached, which was, you know, 70s and 80s.

You were probably borderline being physically abused and screamed at.

Yeah. Shake it off. If you, you know, you're a

Shake it off. Don't cry. Um, Um, but that modern day sports has gotten a lot different, like we, you can go get water whenever you want. You can, if you're feeling sick, you know, there's differences between being injured and hurt, but I, I've never, I think some dads, some coaches really like the idea of going out and just abusing kids, whether that's mentally, I think they, they feel they're doing them a favor because.

That was done to them and that coaching is not unlike parenting in that respect, especially I think with men, we, we tend to do things that, is why my dad did it, you know, that's the way we're always going to do it, but I think it's important to look at that and say, okay, is just because I grew up that way or just because I was taught that, is that right?

And I found really quickly that some of my best kids, some of the best athletes, they don't respond well to being yelled at. And some of them I have to sit down one on one and have a conversation with them. Some of them don't like taking criticism. They get embarrassed. I have kids that are on the spectrum, ADHD.

They all require a different touch. So this blanket theory of I'm going to go out and scream at them and then physically abuse them until they can't, you know, walk or breathe anymore. That's, that's not what you do with, with young kids in a, in a sports setting like that.

I love that. How do you guys handle emotions with your boys on the

You know,

at home?

I, I guess I was talking to my dad about this the other day. He actually sent me an article and it was, it was, uh, basically summarizing how youth refs and coaches are abused. I've been on the other end of that where I've got dads, you know, completely up my rear. I'm a volunteer coach and they're screaming at me about whatever.

Uh, my dad was Was strict growing up but was always very understanding of emotion, you know, I was never shamed for Crying or being upset. I was a pretty sensitive kid and that's translated In how I raise my own kids, it's especially Jack like it's okay to have emotions. Okay to cry That doesn't define, you know, if you're a man or not So we're perfectly comfortable with that at home Um expanding that to how I coach can sometimes be interesting because you do get the dads that are you know Suck it up.

We don't cry. We don't do that, you know put the skirt on type of stuff And it's really just communicating to them like, hey, if you're upset, tell me, let's go take a break. Let's talk about it. And whether it's a, whether you're parenting, um, you know, you're managing within an organization or you're, you're coaching kids, that's important.

You get more out of an athlete if you figure out what's wrong, why they're upset. You know, what about this is bothering you? And if you can figure that out, you can, you can make the kid or the employee or whoever perform better. And so I think that emotion part is important in letting them express that.

I think, you know, doing it the old school way where, you know, we don't, we don't cry and we don't do all that I think is, is really detrimental to young boys specifically.

Well, and I think that, you know, no one performs well when they're upset and emotional. I mean, you can't, I actually was just having a conference with one of my kids teachers, and we were just kind of talking about how, man, he just does not like. to practice reading at home, and I said, I don't think there's any benefit to me pushing it

Mm mm.

he's not going to learn how to read because we're having some like emotional battle over him sitting down with me and reading.

I think actually it's going to click eventually. He's in. Second grade, and he can read, he's just a little behind grade level, but my point is, is, you know, and then I have another son who has basically no working memory, and I'm trying to help him memorize his times table, and like, he's crying, I'm crying, and I'm sitting there with Legos, like, trying to be like, look, it's, I'm trying to explain this to you, and do you, no one's learning anything right now, so I'm,

force them, you teach them to hate it.

Right. I mean, that's the thing. And I think it's so important. I mean, the second it could It starts hating this, the sport or activity he's in it, it undermines the whole point of doing it. Um, growing up, we were, we were a huge tennis family. I didn't learn how to play tennis, but everyone else in my family did.

I guess I went and watched, but we watched Wimbledon and us open. That was kind of a big thing in our house. We'd get up early and eat breakfast and watch. And I, so that was during the time of like Pete Sampras, Andre Agassi, those guys. I was a humongous Agassi fan, like every young girl in America probably, and I read his biography and it broke my heart how much he hated tennis. I was reading it and when he met Steffi Graf, who later became his wife, he felt like he was sharing this secret with her when he said, you know, I actually hate tennis. And she goes, yeah, me too. She was like the best female tennis player. And you're sitting here and I, great. They made a career and they did all of these things, but gosh, it makes me sad as a fan to know he wasn't out there even enjoying.

It at all.

And tennis specifically is like that. The, the abuse you have to go through to get, be good at that sport. Cause like you said, it's all on you. There's no teammates or anything. And starting at that young, I, yeah, I think you grow to hate it. I think a lot of kids grow to hate sports because they're forced into it or they're forced to commit to it at a level that's not appropriate for their age.

And they just get burned out. I mean, I get burned out. I get burned out with work. I, if you look at it that way, like, okay, I'm making my kid go to school, then play two hours of sport every evening. I'd be burned out too.

Right. And when do they get a chance to be like, Hmm, what would I like to do with my time right now? There's not that opportunity. Well, gosh, it's all so tricky. So you have a son who's super into sports and then you have a daughter. How Oh, yeah. Um, you know, culturally, I think there's been so much progress in women being more of an equal to men and, you know, girl power and all of those things. But at the same time, like the reality, you leave your house and you know, you're at school being treated less than, or you're, eventually she's going to graduate and start a job and realize, I mean, she's beautiful and that is going to. That is going to be an obstacle for

Yes.

So how, how is that going?

She's 11.

She's 11. I don't, I don't think she quite grasps that yet. And we've had, I've started having those kinds of difficult conversations because it's hard. Sometimes she has to be treated differently, not because I want to treat her differently, just because I know the world is going to treat her differently.

So having to explain to her like, hey, there's a gender pay gap. Hey, you know, when you go to college and you have to walk across campus at night, you can't do that by yourself. Those are difficult conversations and explaining that to her because you were born a certain way, you're going to be treated this way.

Those are tough. And explaining to her that, hey, you know, the reason for this is because of old white guys like your dad sometimes make it that way. That's tough to grasp for an 11 year old. So just giving her the tools, I think, to be okay with speaking her mind. Um, you know, I tell both my kids, like, you are 100% allowed to disagree with me on anything.

You're allowed to express that if I'm getting on to you or you don't like a rule. You can verbalize that. Please tell me you don't agree with it. Tell me why you don't agree with it. That doesn't mean it's going to change. Doesn't mean your reality is going to change, but I'll at least allow you to communicate that we can have that conversation.

Um, so allowing her to be, have a safe space where she can come and say, Hey, this is bothering me. I don't want to do this. Um, you know, sometimes it's, I don't, I don't have the mental capacity to go to school today. And that's fine, you know, some days I don't want to go to work. And so I think we have this expectation of our kids sometimes, like that.

You've got to be on 24 7. You've got to go to school every day because I have to go to work and I don't want to have to mess with you because you didn't go to school.

Well, especially at a certain age, it's like, okay, I, theoretically, I would love for you to be able to take a mental health day. How are we going to do that? Because somebody is going to have, you know, depending on how old they are, we can't just leave you at home for your mental health break and it's certainly not a mental health break to go to work with one of your parents.

and luckily I've always worked from home. So it's a bit of a blessing in that area where they've had the flexibility where it's like, okay, you're you're fed up You don't have to go to school today But it is a harsh reality and I've had to really reassess You know because my wife and I have what you could describe as a traditional marriage she stays at home I'm I work but having to explain to my daughter like hey, you could do whatever you want.

 Just in that, you know, I was traveling so much at one point. I still do. It was easier to have her home when they were little. Um, you know, there was never any conversation between Ashley and myself where I said, Hey, you need to stay at home because you're the mother.

That's, that's not how that rolled. Um, but explaining to my daughter, like, Hey, you will hear, you know. talk over to say that, like your job is to be at home and do this. That's not the campus. You can do whatever you want. You can go run a company, you start your own business, you can be an artist, you know, the sky's the limit, but making her understand that you are capable to do anything and don't let anybody tell you differently because you're a girl.

Those are tough conversations for an 11 year old to have to hear from your dad, I

Yeah. Have you ever seen the ad? It's going to make me cry just thinking about it. I think it maybe was a, maybe it was deodorant. Anyway, but it was little girls and they were saying, show me running like a girl. Show me.

Yeah.

Throwing like a

Yeah.

and they're all just trying their heart like they don't know yet that it's They're being insulted that to say doing something like a girl is an insult and you know, at our house, okay, Stephanie, don't cry about a commercial, um, but I just watched it and it just like punched me in the stomach to sit there and you know, we're trying at our house, we're trying so hard to raise little feminists.

Yeah.

And, you know, I know some people don't really like that word, but honestly, I just, I want my kids to believe that no matter what the difference is, whether it's a racial difference, a gender difference, um, a gender nonconformity, um, religious background, like we try really hard to, you know, every once in a while, somebody will come home and say, You're You know, maybe I was hugging my friend and somebody, you know, told me that was gay.

And I'm like, okay, we're going to talk about this because in our household, saying the word gay is never a slur. That is not appropriate at all. And we're going to talk about why and how. And I said, there, you, you're just sitting here going, it is not a bad thing to be gay. If one of your friends is gay.

Great. Whatever.

And it's going to happen.

and it's going, yes, it is absolutely going to happen. I actually had that conversation with my mom. I'm like, statistically, one of your grandkids is probably gay. I

I told, I told my football team that. So you can imagine the looks I

right. And they're all

Telling a bunch of th...

who is it? What, you know,

yeah, that's the truth.

but you know, we sit there and you know, and sometimes they throw things back at me that are convicting because they're like, I mean, you say that, um, A man can marry a man and a woman can marry a woman, but like how come all of your friends are just men and women? And I'm like, you know what, Betty, that is a really good point. And I do, I do have friends that are, you know, married to the same gender. They don't live in close proximity to us. So, you know, you don't see them. I remember one time we were playing the game Life, which we only played one time. And I was like, this game is horrible.

Like, do you remember playing that game? I mean, it is so like 80s stereotype.

it's horrible.

you, you know, which path do you wanna pa do you wanna pick the path to college or the, you know, get a job, whatever. And then, then you like roll again and it's like, okay, now you have to get married and this and this is happening.

Um, so we only, I threw it away honestly after I was like, I don't remember playing this game. It was so fun. Let's play it. And when they landed on. You have to get married. We do a lot of this. I'm like, well, do you want to get married to a man or a woman? Like in the game? Do you want a little pink guy to stick in your car or, you know, or girl or a little blue guy?

And one of my kids, and I could tell he's literally never thought about it. And probably the thought of marrying a woman is terrifying. So he's like, blue. I want a blue guy. I'm gay! It was hilarious. And we all were like, okay! And we just kept playing. Like, we try to make it not a big deal, but then we obviously need to talk about it. And then as far as the differences in gender. Um, I mean, these kids are, I don't know what stories they're going to tell about their parents when they grow up, but we talk so much about, I mean, my kids get little history lessons and like

Oh, we do too.

everything.

And so they make one comment and I'm like, well, actually when grandma got out of college, um, she wasn't even allowed to open her own bank account and she couldn't have her own credit card. And now it's a big deal that I could make financial decisions all by myself. I think we were playing. Oh, we were playing old maid, which is a very fun

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

But the old maid is horribly sexist and antiquated. So

of that.

yeah, my son actually marked out. Old maid and wrote nice maid on the cards.

you go. More politically correct.

Um, cause I was like, Oh, I have never thought about that term before. And he was like, well, what does it mean? And I said, well, there was a time period where if you were like 26 and not married yet, you were kind of considered.

Yeah, you were an old maid. You had nothing to contribute to society. I guess you were going to live with your parents the rest of your life. And anymore, actually, a woman can be very successful and never get married. And I think my kids are constantly like, Oh, there goes mom again. But I mean, we're talking about it.

Yeah, no, they'll remember that. And I've said the same thing to my kids. And especially, you know, 12, 13 year old boys. Their favorite thing is, you know, Oh, that's gay. That's gay. And, uh, you know, Oklahomans for Equality is a nonprofit I volunteer with. And so I've tried to be very deliberate in, Um, Hey, not only is that bad, but we're in Oklahoma and it's, it's worse.

And, you know, explain to them why, you know, I've pulled up statistics, you know, gay kids, trans kids are so much more likely to commit suicide, have mental health issues. And so I'm sure they get exhausted with me too, but when you break it down, it really is important that the words that come out of your mouth, um, you know, can hurt more than something physically.

And. Kids need to understand that from a, from a young age, especially now that with social media and everything. I can't imagine growing up in this era where everything you say is, is documented and in public. Um, but no, I think those conversations are, are very, very important.

I think they're huge and I think you just also, you know, I, I can't remember what I was reading or listening to, but it was, you know, an adult person who was gay and they were talking about how scary it was to come out to their parents, even though their parents had always, Acted like, you know, said they were open and, you know, weren't homophobic or whatever.

But their parents, when talking, the language they used were, One day your wife is going to da da da da da. And, um, it was just like an assumption. So, I try so hard to be like, if you choose to get married,

Yeah.

you're, and I say, if you choose to get married, your husband or wife may not like that. I mean, I just, I try so hard to not even use the assumptive, first of all, that you're going to get married.

First of all, that it's going to be someone of the opposite gender, that you're going to have children. These are all assumptions I'm trying so hard to not put on my kids. And if, if my kids have to be emotionally wrecked to come to me and come out to me, I will have failed.

exactly. And I, I feel the same way and that's why I think it's so important that, uh, of that toxic masculinity I talk about so much. Really learning to let that go. I have the same conversations with my kids, like, you're safe, you know, if no matter what, who you marry, if you don't get married, I want you to always be comfortable with coming to me and knowing that that's safe.

It's hard because I, a lot of that gets labeled now as this woke movement but it's like you said, it's not I'm doing it for the sake of doing it, I, I want my kid to feel safe with me, and I want him to know, and her, that I'm always there for them, and I think that's the way to do it. You can't, you can't come out and dictate who they're gonna marry, what gender, you know, if, if they have gender identity issues.

That, that's not controllable by you, no, no matter how much you want it to be. And so you can either fight that or you can learn to be sympathetic and understanding and keep your child in your life because otherwise, you know, which we're getting really good about if your parents are abusive a holes, you know, the trend now is cut them off.

It's not worth it. It's not worth your mental health, which I think is the right move, but we as parents have to be more understanding. Like, there's, there's no contract to say once they graduate high school or college that they have to be. Um, I think setting up that environment where they're safe and want to be around you and feel loved is, is vital.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I have to say it's terrifying raising three boys and worrying that one day they're going to get it. Let's say they marry women, they get married to a woman, and they spend all their time with the wife's family, right? And you know, selfishly I'm like, I am killing myself here trying to raise you people.

So you better want to eat lunch with me every once in a while or something.

Well, it's funny, my, my son is getting girl crazy. And, uh, so we've started talking about, I mean, we've had every discussion I think I can feasibly have with him, but things like consent. Right.

Mm hmm.

You know, you can't just go up and, and touch not just women, anybody, but specifically, you know, when you're in a setting, you know, consent is important and, uh, you know, I've, I've really railed on, you know, here's what you do.

Here's what you don't do. You say this, you don't say this, but I, I never looked at him and said, Hey, you have your own emotional rights and needs too. And so he had a girlfriend that, He broke up with and he was like, you know, I just didn't like the way she treated me. She was really mean. She was mean to me around my friends.

I'm like, well, good for you. And I was like, through, through all the stuff I had been telling you about how to treat women and all that, I never looked at you and said, hey, you, you have your own ability to stand up for yourself and, and promote your own mental health. So I was really proud of him in that, in that setting.

Isn't it interesting the lessons we're constantly learning from our kids? I mean, it's exhausting, but it's also just, you know, you were worried about really good and important things. And then, you know what the other stuff though? I think that he sees that modeled for him on, you know, I'm sure how you and Ashley treat each other. You know, just being raised and I'm sure being coached through like, what's a friend, what's a, we kind of talk about what's a real friend, what's a buddy or an acquaintance, how people treat you and things like that. But I mean, I think that's awesome that he came to that conclusion all on his own.

He's been really good. We were riding in the car yesterday and he just randomly goes, you know what, dad, I trust you. And that was huge. That was like a heart melting moment for me, because he doesn't have to. There's no, you can't force that. And so him to say that, we've, we've had some really deep conversations when it comes to, you know, society, like mental health.

That, that doesn't get explained to young men enough. And you're, I think you're seeing it manifest today where. You're seeing a lot of men with mental health issues and, and we see that in the school shootings and definitely not trying to say that it's not a gun issue. I, I think it is, but there's definitely a mental, mental health capacity to it.

And those are things we haven't addressed traditionally for men and, you know, men grow up, they feel like they're an island. Um, you know, they get shamed for sharing their feelings. So giving him that, that environment where that safe has. For now, knock on wood, paid dividends for our relationship.

Well, I mean, the statistics are out there now that, you know, not having close friends is worse for your health than smoking.

Yeah. I believe that.

and I think so often, um, you know, like Casey has his friends, right? Like he, and I think he really, really, Actually, I know he enjoys the people he works with and he has a lot of fun.

But I mean, he has really a best friend and anytime they have the opportunity to hang out, I am always like, go, yes, go meet him for drinks. Go out to lunch. You guys want to, I mean, I would love it if you'd play golf during the week instead of all day on Saturday. Um. But he needs, and it's funny because I'm often times like, tell me what you guys talked about and it doesn't really feel like they've really talked a lot about whatever, um, but I, it's so important, especially for men to be able to, I mean, listen, what's going on in our houses and raising these people is hard.

And you know, there's more than once I've been like, babe, I would just. Should you, you know, I'm in therapy. Maybe you need to be in therapy because, you know, these kids we're raising are kicking our butts. Um, and I'm like, go and you can complain about me the whole time and how it's ridiculous that your wife is making you go to therapy.

Um, he feels like that isn't something he needs. Uh, he also is not. I don't know. My, my therapist says that I am like someone who has all of the file folders open at the same time on her desktop and that it is very healthy that Casey has folders closed.

That sounds right.

Yeah. So I'm like, no, I think he's a robot. Is he not a robot?

No, I love Casey.

I know. I love, I love him too. It's just so funny.

wanted to throw that out

I'm like, how are you sleeping?

No, I know. And I'm that way too. I'm the one that's, you know, I'll pop up at three in the morning because I forgot to do something or I'm constantly going. And my daughter's like that sadly, uh, but you know, she's in therapy. I'm, we all have therapists. We all have psychiatrists. That's another thing we're completely open and, and comfortable with.

If you want to go talk to somebody and it's not mom and dad, that's perfectly fine. Um, Let's get you in there. That's, you know, perfectly, and Piper loves it. She looks forward to it,

I love it too. I

her, works through her, her problems, and I think that's a great thing.

yeah, it's interesting because I'm actually, I feel like I'm doing pretty well lately and I don't have any appointments set up and every once in a while I'm like, I should just throw one on the calendar and go in there for, you know, a check in. Usually some bullshit bubbles to the top in my life by the time the appointment rolls around.

So I'm like, how convenient that I already had this on here. But, you know, I. So, anyone who has never tried therapy, here's what's cool about it. The right therapist is sitting there listening without any judgment because whatever you talk about, they have heard like one gajillion times crazier from somebody else.

And a good therapist just, you know, particularly with adults, asks good questions.

Mm hmm.

And then you're left going, Hmm, mine likes to say, what feeling does that bring up on you in you? And then I was like, I don't know. You know, like, uh, what belief system? What, because it usually comes down to, I feel like I'm failing.

So

Yes, same.

freaking out and.

my big issue.

And I, I, you know, I have to say like through therapy, I started, I don't know, four or five years ago. Um, I'm able to notice in myself, gosh, I am very anxious right now. Never would have noticed. I was, I just would have been anxious all over everyone and no one would have wanted to be around me.

I noticed I'm anxious. And then like, if I have a disagreement with someone or, I'm upset about something, I actually take the time to go, okay, what about this am I so upset about? Am I upset that we had a disagreement? And oftentimes it's, I'm really afraid this person's going to leave, like they're not going to want to be my friend anymore.

I mean, I'm taking a disagreement over something that's really not that big, but my brain is taking it all the way to the end where if I state how I feel about something, they're going to break up with me. Like it's going to be,

I'm out.

my brothers are never going to talk to me again because we can't decide when we're having Christmas lunch. I, I internalize all of these things and the, the ramifications are huge, even on small things, but she has taught me to recognize in myself, okay, what happened today that I'm so anxious? Oh, yeah. Someone texted me and said, Hey, can you talk later? That was like literally

about what? Tell me now!

What?! Do you I've even texted Shelly will text me and be like, Are you free to talk?

And I'm like, What's going on? Is everything okay? What do you like If you want to talk to me, you just have to call me. You have to call just catch me off guard and call me. Please do not ask me to set aside 30 minutes later to talk to you.

To give me the worst news ever.

And it is, it almost never is,

No.

like literally almost never is, um, and it has been really powerful for my, you know, my trickiest kid because he's recognizing his anxiety

Yeah.

He's able to, instead of you know, falling apart and ruining an entire day necessarily being able to say, You know, I mean, it's literally the countdown to anything. So the last couple of weeks, the countdown to the end of the school is anxiety inducing, even if we're really excited for summer. It's just change.

Um, but you know, he came downstairs last night and he was like, I just feel weird. I feel anxious. I feel like someone's watching me. And I was like, okay, well let's talk through that. And I think he was just very hyper aware of his surroundings. Um, Um, really worried about how he was going to look at school the next day, which is interesting.

My kids have never cared how they look.

Yeah.

And yeah, so we talked through it. And it was funny because I went upstairs and got him back in bed and came downstairs in case he was like, well, how was that? And I was like, actually, it was fine. I, we talked for a minute and then I talked to him in and left instead of.

Three hours of like, I, what are we doing? Because when you don't know what you're anxious about and you don't recognize it as anxiety, then you're just, um, um, you are a ball. You're like live wires.

and then you're scared, because you don't know why you feel that way. Piper's the same way, and that's where therapy's been so important, because she can verbalize, I've had a bad day, I don't really want to talk to you right now, I just want to go in my room and sit for an hour, and it's like, go for it.

And

I love that. It's so hard for me. I want to be like, are you sure you don't want me to fix it and sit with you for an

no, and that's, And I'm like, go, and then, you know, she and Ashley, we've kind of figured out which kid we have to deal with, I deal with Piper, Ashley deals with Jack, you know, we're, we're similar in that aspect, but I get it, I remember having to come home from school and be like, I just, I just need a few minutes, and so she goes in and has time, and then she comes out and she's fine, whereas previously, you know, she wouldn't understand why she felt that way, and then it was a complete terror

Right. She's slamming doors and throwing her backpack

right.

and also it increases all of those emotions when you don't even understand like why they're happening. I mean, why am I, I don't know why. I don't know why. I'm, I can't tell you how often my kid with anxiety has said, I don't know why I, you know, and, and now he's able to say, well, actually I had a terrible day because no one wanted to sit with me at

Yes.

and

usually simple things like

and I'm like, this I can work with this.

We can talk about. Um, and I usually talk about how, so when I was in fourth, fifth and sixth grade, I went to a private school. Um, That shall not be named. And I did not fit in there. Like I wanted to play sand tag. I wanted to play four square and in fourth grade these girls were already like ratting their bangs, which guys it was the eighties and um, rolling their uniform skirt up to like show more fourth grade leg.

And I did not fit in there. And I know there were times where I would go sit down in the cafeteria and everyone at the table would get up and move. Um, like I was that exiled, I mean, and I overheard my mom on the phone at least once saying, you can't have the sleeping sleep over for Amy and not invite my daughter because she, the class is tiny.

You can't exclude, but who wants to like they made you get invited.

Right.

But I tell my kids, I'm like, first of all, that sucks, and I hate that you feel that way. And, you know, talk about it all you want. And then I also say, I really want you to remember how you feel right now,

Mm hmm.

because you have the power to save somebody from that feeling or inflicted on somebody.

Cause my kids look at me and they're like, you didn't have any friends. Because I have friends now. It's funny because I went back to public school after all of that and immediately had friends again. I mean, I just did not, I was just, didn't fit in in this school. Um. But I mean, listen, I didn't need to learn the lesson for three years.

I say that all the time. I didn't need to be there three years to learn the lesson on how to be nice to people, but I mean, I'll never forget it. And my level of empathy for people who feel uncomfortable or don't fit in is so much greater than if I just had smooth sailing the whole time.

Same. And it, and it makes you hyper aware as a parent, not just that it might be being done to your kid, but is my kid going to school and doing that?

Yeah.

you figure out like every kid is, it's not black and white. Every kid is capable of being a little asshole. And there, there are kids that I'm like never in a million years would I dream that they'd be the problem kid at school.

And it's like they're in trouble and things like that. So, you know, just cause you think your kid is not capable of something doesn't mean they're not. Going to school and, you know, doing something they see somebody else doing. So, yeah, it definitely makes you hyper aware and very sensitive to, to stuff like that.

Yeah, and it's hard because you're trying to teach these lessons. I mean, listen, I'm 45 years old and I, I can, if I were, if I were an artist of any kind, I could draw exactly where I was sitting. Where I was sitting at the table, I can see the wall, the windows, like I can see everything about that cafeteria in the moment those people got up and left.

 But, um, Those are the things that stick with you forever, and that was one of the things that was really stressful to me about teaching, was we all have a memory of a teacher saying the completely wrong thing to you, and you're like, my teacher said I would never amount to something, and I guarantee even in my In my very short two years of teaching, there are kids walking around that were like, Mrs.

Riddle said this and this and this to me, and I will never forget her. Um, that's a lot of pressure.

Yeah, it is.

and it's so hard to, I don't know, sometimes we just need to not think about it. We need to address the child that is in front of us and the issue that is in front of us to the best. of our ability.

And I've, I've had, I've had incidents like that. I still remember to this day, teachers telling me like, Hey, maybe you shouldn't go to college. It's like, why? I have straight A's. It's like, You know, you're just, maybe you shouldn't go to college. Maybe you should just go to, you know, community college or something.

It's like, what would compel you to say that?

Yeah. You'll never amount to anything or whatever. Um, yeah, you know, gosh, the challenges with these kids are so hard. So, you know, the whole podcast, we're talking about raising tricky kids and I know we've talked a lot about your kids today, but I mean, is there, I mean, do you feel like there's anything tricky about your kids you might want to talk about or is it more, it's just tricky raising kids?

Yes.

Piper's been tricky. Um, I'd say she's high anxiety. Um, you know, like I said, we've got her in with a therapist. She's tricky. She, Jack's pretty straightforward. Jack's easily motivated. Um, you know, it's very black and white. Hey, you've got a bad grade, you need to get your grade up and, you know, generally he does that.

He'll put in the work to do that. Um, you know, I can motivate him like, hey, if you do this, I'll, I'll give you this. Piper's not that way. And she's been like that since she was a baby. And it was, I remember when we were potty training her and I mean, it was complete hell. And then one day we said, hey, if you'll go on the potty, you can get your ears pierced.

And it was that day.

Oh, you found motivation. You found the thing.

it wasn't, it wasn't, hey, do this and I'll give it to you, it was, she wants that and then I will

Mm hmm.

So she's just, and that's not a bad thing. That's especially her, you know, being a young woman, I don't want to take that from her because she's skeptical of things. She questions things.

There's, you know, there's, there's not a scenario where I can say, Hey, you need to do this just because I said, so she wants to know why she's very vocal if she feels like she's been wronged and that's sometimes I, we feel like we're raising a 25 year old and not an 11 year old because I have some conversations with her.

It's just, it's like, because I said, so isn't going to cut it. So it turns into a 30 minute discussion. So she, she's been tricky. Um, we have a really strong. Uh, core group of friends. And so I have one friend, she's a regional president for Humana. She's got her law degree. She's, she's a complete badass. And so one thing she's done, which I very much appreciate is she'll see Piper do something.

And she'll say, Piper, come here. She'll be like, as a woman and as a leader, that's not how you want to go about that. Here's how I would do it.

Oh.

amazing. She sees someone kind of like her, what she aspires to be. And that person's telling her like, hey, this is not that you're wrong, but this is how I would have done that to get a different reaction.

So things like that, hearing from people who are not your parents, I think is amazingly valuable at a young age.

Oh my gosh. It's huge. I mean, and if it, I don't know. My kids think I, um, I don't know. I don't think that they necessarily trust my opinion or wisdom or world knowledge at all.

Oh, I don't think so either. I heard it. I heard an interesting tidbit the other day that that's, that's by design. Kids are, you learn to think your family are complete morons because it urges you to leave to prevent crossbreeding. So.

and you need

you go to a different village, you leave and go to a different village and do all that.

So, I don't know if that's accurate, but my 13 year old is definitely like, I'll say something and you can just see him like, oh, here it comes.

Oh, I know.

is relevant. Like, I promise I know what I'm talking about.

Oh gosh, it's so hard. I think my kids think I'm an idiot though, because they're like, so you used to work in movies, and now, like, what happened?

Yeah.

Cause that would have been cool if you'd kept doing that. Um, but once again, Twister, if you'd like to cast me in your movie, I, I will, I will make myself available, but I mean, it's just, it's interesting.

And it's funny because I have outsiders. Say, oh my gosh, you guys do the funnest things with your kids and You guys have the coolest game room with the swings and the trapezes and everything And I get called a fun killer on a regular basis in our house and like on Casey's Facebook like happy Mother's Day post he put hashtag fun killer

Oh my gosh.

And I'm like how many of your friends have a rock wall

Yeah. Oh yeah.

in their game room?

They'll be hearing about that for forever.

Yes. Um, you know, and Casey's like, you guys, you know, I'm actually like laid back and fun, but you guys won't stop getting into fistfights over who's going to sit in the middle row of the car.

They don't understand that part.

He's like, I want to, I don't, this isn't how I want to be. Please don't make me be this person.

No, we're the same. And Jack's usually the culprit in our house. It's like, hey, you've done the same thing 70 times, and you've gotten the same reaction out of us, and you're still getting upset when we get on to you. Like, at what point is it going to register that that's not what you're supposed to be doing?

It's so interesting. It's like they, they're. Little brains just can't move as quickly as their bodies when they're making decisions. It's fascinating. Oh my gosh. Well, is there anything else you wanted to talk to, talk to me about today?

I don't think so. We covered a lot.

We did. We squeezed a lot in in an

I know.

All right. Awesome. Well, it was very nice talking to you, Kevin.

I haven't seen you in person in a million

I know, we need to go to dinner again sometime.

I would love it. It was funny because I pulled up in your driveway to drop off the recording equipment and Ashley happened to, did she tell you

Yeah. Which I told her you were coming.

well, she was looking at me like she was maybe getting ready to get kidnapped

Yeah.

I got out of my car.

I was laughing and I was like, please tell me your husband told you that I was coming. But she's looking at me like, because I just pulled up in the driveway, um, and I did have my sunglasses on and I'm sure she, you know, but it was just funny because the look she gave me and then she, the relief on her face when she realized, Oh, I know this person.

She watches too much Dateline, as I'm sure you do too.

No, I actually find all of that

You don't get into that? That's, that's, I do too. I can't watch it, it just makes me sad.

I can't like, if I'm going to watch something scary, it needs to be something that like, um, Would really never happen like I don't know somebody gets stuck on Mars or something and their spaceship doesn't work But if it's you know, a woman in her 30s or 40s that went for a jog and didn't come back. I

it's home a little too much.

I'm like that could be me.

This is not entertaining. I think some people they watch it because it I First of all, I think they're like, okay. Okay, cool. I won't do that. I won't do that that I will stay alive if I don't do the things that took place in that, that particular episode or whatever. Um, it's, I,

I'm convinced Netflix is breeding a generation of white female serial killers they've all got the blueprint now of how to do this and how to get away with it and what not to do. So I think it's the other way. I think eventually I'm going to be murdered and it will be Ashley's fault.

And she will have, and she won't get caught. She's going to know all the

knows everything.

That's hysterical. I haven't looked at it that way, but yes, that's entirely possible. No, I am watching like Ted Lasso. That's more my thing. Have you tried to watch that with Jack? Is he, would he be interested?

He's he's we're getting him tested for ADD, ADHD.

Mm hmm.

He can't sit down and watch a show to save his life. He just can't do it which II have ADHD. I got diagnosed. Late in life. So I completely get that. I have to be in the right mood to sit down and focus on anything. But he's, it's really hard for him to sit down and watch TV.

That's how my younger two are. Like, they desperately want to watch, like, let's have family movie night! And it's all fun, like, they put down blankets and they make popcorn and they give everyone drinks and then, like, 20 minutes into the movie they cannot stand being there anymore.

Jack's like, what's going on? I'm like, dude, we're watching the same movie. What, why are you asking me?

Oh, I know. Who's that guy? What's he doing? I'm like, he is the

the main character. Same. Same.

I don't, and I'm also like, I don't know. I am also only 15 minutes into...

together. I have no extra knowledge of anything.

With my, with all of my children, it is important that I have already seen the movie. Because otherwise I am not a nice person.

No, I'm the same.

You asked me a million questions and you have to get up. I mean, listen, the movie theater, the only way my kids can sit through a movie is they each get like, we get a big popcorn, but we spread it out.

So everybody's got popcorn. They get a candy, they get a snack. And as long as they're, this is terrible habit, I guess, as long as they're eating something the whole time, they will sit there.

No, we're the same. 300 later, or whatever it is.

I know. And that's, again, I'm like, do you know how much that bottle of water costs?

I know. We went the other day, I was like, this is, this was a 100 ordeal for Piper and me.

I know it's so expensive and it's funny because, you know, I'm a big Hamilton musical fan. And when it came out, you know, during lockdown or whatever, people made fun of me because it, it came out on Disney plus at midnight on Eastern time. So here it was 2 AM and, or does that math work anyway? It was the middle of, I set my alarm for 2 AM.

That's what it was available in central standard time anyway. People were like, you're nuts getting up at 2:00 AM to watch this. And I'm like, it's the only way I will enjoy it. It's the only way. And I'm so glad I did. First of all, it was locked down, so like I didn't have anywhere to be the next morning.

It was a Wednesday and I wasn't going to work. I was working from home, but also went, first of all, I got caught. I totally thought I was being so smart. But when the kids pulled up Disney plus, it was like start over was like the option and I. They're like, why does it say that? I'm like, I don't know.

That's really weird. Let's get it going though.

a few times.

But They're familiar with it. We've listened to the music, you know, and the questions kept coming So and also this is funny and there's probably an entire generation of kids that are like this. My kids don't understand That diverse cast is playing a bunch of white people.

Right.

they probably think George Washington is a very tall, handsome black man. So, there's

do they know.

there's some confusion in there. I'm constantly, like, giving pausing it and giving history lessons and

And those are hard. That's, I've found, is something really difficult because as, you could still be patriotic and very critical.

Uh huh.

Of our country and I think a lot of people, especially in Oklahoma, don't, don't believe that, but I'm like, dude. So this last year, you know, I coach a football team. That's 95% white kids.

Well, they, they thought it was the funniest thing in the world to start using the N word.

No, no, no.

And it got pretty stressful, but I, I sat there for 30 minutes and gave them. A history lesson on here. Here's what that means. Let's go back 300 years and they looked at me like I was out of my mind. I think I got my point across but it's like, dude, read a history book before you start running your mouth like that.

I have told my kids it's the most violent word you can

It's horrible.

Um, unfortunately, as a result of that, one of my kids twice now when he was at his angriest whipped the word out, um, because we told him it was the worst thing you could ever say.

Yeah, you made it taboo. I'm going

did, I sure made that word exciting. He didn't even, like, the sentence structure was a

No, they don't

It's just throwing it in there, but we sat him down. And not that we hadn't explained slavery and reconstruction and redlining, I mean like these are things that we talk about, like if it comes up, we talk about it. Um, but, I mean we sat there and I was like, you know so and so who was at your birthday party?

He's black. And he, he was like, he is like, how, how do you know he's black? That's all a whole nother thing where

Yeah.

my kids don't notice, um, good and bad, I guess. And I said, if he ever heard you say that word. He would remember the moment he heard his friend say that word the rest of his life. The rest of his life, he'll remember when this cute little white kid who he thought was his friend used that word.

And he looked at me and I said, this is no small thing. I said, It is a massive, horrible word that you can not say. By the end he's crying and he's like, I just, I'm imagining him like in a room alone, sad. And I was like, okay, so we're never, ever, ever using that word again. And we actually workshopped other terrible cuss words to say

Yeah!

I was like, say this instead, obviously just at home, but if you need to throw the F word out, actually right now we're working on not cussing, but this was a year ago when I was just pleased if it was just the F word, but oh my gosh, but I was like, but also I'm just sitting here and I'm like, how is this happening to me?

I'm so progressive. How is my kid sick? A kid at school taught him the word

Yeah.

year. He never heard it before. Didn't really even understand what it meant, obviously. I think we, he has not said the word since,

No, Jack had a run in with it. He said it, you know, he heard one of his black friends saying it, repeated it, not knowing. The context of it, and I

and that's a complicated conversation

yeah, that's a very complicated conversation, and I was like, one, I've, I've failed you because I haven't explained this to you, and I should have, uh, but, you know, we went into the whole history lesson and everything, and he was the same way, he broke down, he was crying, and, you know, I made him apologize and, you know, went through the whole episode, but it's still, you know, it's, they don't get it, they don't understand what's coming out of their mouth sometimes.

They don't, you know, I think there's a reason that shows like the show Black ish are successful. You know, the whole premise of that show is, um. The star of the show was like, my kids live in a world where president, we had a, you know, a black president that, you know, so there's this like slipping away of people remembering the history, but the history is still in effect right now.

Yes.

it is affecting every nonwhite person in the United States. And the second we all think everything is all better now, we don't need to. worry about it. Like we're just failing.

Yeah.

We are failing our communities.

 📍 We don't listen.

So, well, that was a tangent.

I know that's for a different episode.

Well, I appreciate your time today, Kevin.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thanks for being here.

  

Where the F is my village is produced by Shelley Cadamy and me Stefanie  Phariss with editing by Stefanie Phariss. Special. Thanks to Jason cademy for writing and creating our original music where the F is. My village is an S P S C production